Interviewer
So when you're saying that you didn't really know the people working for John, what would make you think that Michael Rossi or David Cram had any involvement?
Carole Lofgren
Well, those two guys were around a lot. They not only did the work, you know, as far as business-wise but those two guys were around and in the house in-- a lot. And, yeah...
... sleeping and-- and, in fact, for a-- a while there I think even Rossi stayed at the house.
Interviewer
Did you have guest rooms?
Carole Lofgren
But I s-- well, no. But I didn't wanna get too close to them because I had a strange feel-- the-- just the very first time I men Rossi and Cram... I-- I just said to John, and I-- I said, "Those two are bad news." I-- and I said, "John, I think you're asking for trouble."
Interviewer
Just a gut?
Carole Lofgren
Yeah, a real gut feeling. And I said, "I'm not gonna be nasty with them but," I said, "If they step over the line with me", I said, "I'm gonna kick their rear ends out of the house because I don't really care for 'em. So I'm just letting you know ahead of time", you know. And he said, "Well, you know, I'm not gonna step and say one way or the other." He said, "If I knew they were doing wrong to you", he said, "I would step in myself and probably throw 'em out the door." I said, "I don't know why you have them round here but," I said, "I don't feel comfortable with them." Now, this was probably later. Early in our marriage we didn't have a lotta people in the house. It was just us.
Carole Lofgren
And probably when this-- when this whole thing first broke out, yeah, I-- I was, and there was a lotta things that I was shocked about but people learned that, like I did, for the first-- I didn't know anything about the, um-- so, I mean, and, you know, he was in Iowa. He never told me that story.
He told-- he told me all different-- something about biography. Some...
Interviewer
Did you know he'd been in prison?
Carole Lofgren
Yeah. That I did know. That Karen did say. But she didn't go into details about anything and neither did his mother. I just kinda let it go. I mean, I-- I-- 'cause I didn't know the full story. That's why it-- it didn't hit me, like, "Oh, my God, he was in prison." I mean, uh...Well, it's a family friend and, you know, if you like a person-- you like a person, you'd known him for years before. So, yeah, I...
Interviewer
You minimized it, you let it go?
Carole Lofgren
Yeah. Those records were sealed, so nobody would know about it.
Interviewer
Mm. Yes, but you and John did talk about it?
Carole Lofgren
Well, we-- uh, just-- just a brief-- I mean, we didn't get into a real heavy conversation about it, 'cause he said, "I know if I tell you-- tell you these things", he said, "You're gonna make a bigger-- a bigger thing of-- you know, you're gonna take it further." He knew that. 'Cause he always used to tell me about, you know, planting seeds. If you're not sure about something don't say it. If you're sure about it, then go ahead, plant that seed. Otherwise", he said, "Don't start talking."
Interviewer
What kinda things did you ask him about that he didn't wanna talk about?
Carole Lofgren
I just wanted to know, you know, "Well, why were you in prison? Okay, you-- you spend that time in there and you're saying you did real-- you-- you did so many things. You painted the whole prison", and he cooked and, you know, that's where he really got into cooking and whatever.
Interviewer
He wouldn't tell you?
Carole Lofgren
No. Hm mm. He just said it-- he was with his-- uh, he was dealing with pornography or something like that. He was always good to the girls. I can't say enough about that. I mean, um, the girls still refer to him as-- as their dad.
Interviewer
And then when did things start to change?
Carole Lofgren
I dunno. It seemed like...
Interviewer
Or how did it change?
Carole Lofgren
Once he really got into having the PDM Contractors...I think what happened was eventually Bruno was going to sell the-- the restaurant and-- and bar and...Bruno was a-- before we got married he worked-- he worked for Bruno's. And so would you know when the job-- when he told you he was going out on his own to start a business 'cause the bar was closing-- uh, being sold, then...
it all just happened that-- that he went-- ended up opening up the...PDM Contractors and that's when he was...
Interviewer
Did anybody-- did somebody back him? Did he have partners or friends he was in business with?
Carole Lofgren
No. That part of it I-- I don't-- I-- really, I'm-- I'm gonna be honest with you. I don't know.
Even being married to him, there was a lot that I didn't know. I mean, I was always playing detective when he was out. Uh…I just knew he was up to no good.
Interviewer
What did you think it was?
Carole Lofgren
Drugs.
Interviewer
Selling?
Carole Lofgren
Yeah.
Interviewer
And just because he was going out so late?
Carole Lofgren
'Cause he-- he'd end up going out-- uh, I would think he'd be going to bed at midnight and here he is going-- you know, going out and I said, "You're going out at midnight? Anybody that's out at-- going out at that time, up to no good. You're-- you're up to trouble."
Interviewer
And what did he say about that?
Carole Lofgren
And he would always tell me, you know, "You're sounding like my father." I said, "Good. I hope it haunts you." Yeah. [LAUGHS]
Interviewer
And then...
Carole Lofgren
00:24:33:11
Because most people, as you say, they settle into bed, they go to sleep, they wake up the next morning then go back to work. And why I was up at night, because I would try to go to sleep. Our bedroom was right by the drive as you come in. And there were times I'd hear the car and I'm thinking he's coming in, never heard the door open. So I'd get up and I would mosey around. He'd be, uh-- his car would be parked and he'd be maybe standing and talking to somebody and it was always a young kid. And I wouldn't let him see me... so I didn't have any lights. I would sit in the dark...and there were many a times he'd come in and I would scare the living daylights out of him.
I just saw him jump and I would just jump for joy and say, "Good, I'm glad. I hope you finally remember one day." Because he had-- "What-- what the..." And he told me-- sitting here in the dark. I said, "Well, it's nice waiting in the dark trying to figure out what the Hell you're doing."
Interviewer
Did you understand what he was doing with those kids?
Carole Lofgren
Well, I said, "A young kid is out at that time? Now he's up to no good. So that makes two of you up to no good." So this is why-- I don't know. I-- I just had this thing with I thought really he was dealing with drugs. After that, he would leave. He was-- like I said, he was in and out. It was-- I said, "It's like a Grand Central Station, all night long. I can tell you about three or four times. You come, you go. You come, you go." Later, John put locks on-- on doors. There was a sliding door that separated, um, the kitchen from rolling into the, uh, back, uh, back down and he put locks on it later on and he didn't buy any food, nothing. My mother was-- was getting food...
Interviewer
00:33:49:17
When you say the door was locked, d'you mean you couldn't get in the kitchen?
Carole Lofgren
I was not allowed in the den. Well, that's where he would sleep. That was his off-- his office was in there…and so he-- he locked it and...And-- and-- and, uh, like, to me that-- I dunno. I felt like I was living in this-- that it was some kind of a movie that we were doing. I'd always be sitting in the-- in the den waiting for him to go into the office. Um, so that later on he locked it.
Interviewer
So you couldn't be in that...
Carole Lofgren
I couldn't be in there. But I could still hear the cars. I could see-- I still was doing my…I was doing my investigating. Oh, my God. I don't think I ever slept a lot, really. And then the one time I was in his car, cleaning-- cleaning the car out, or something, and I-- I-- I went-- I reached under the seat and found a big crowbar and a couple of others, and I'm, like, "What-- what are you carrying a crowbar in your car for?" He says, "What the Hell are you doing in my car?" I said, "I was cleaning it." "D'you find anything else?" I said, "No, but I'll be looking."
Interviewer
Uh, this, uh, person I'm kinda curious about, that we were talking about before, who had said that down at Bruno's he would-- he met Mike Madigan and-- and his wife? Did you socialize or-- I'm just trying to get to the bottom of, you know-- I know you said that you not like Michael Rossi...and David Cram.
Carole Lofgren
And I got the same feeling about Mike Madigan, you know. Yeah. Um...
Interviewer
What-- what kind of feeling?
Carole Lofgren
I don't know. I just-- I didn't like him. I still don't. I can't stand looking at that man. I don't know. It's just something about that guy that is just-- that he's kind of a two-faced person. I don't know. I-- I just don't get a good feeling about him and I can't stand him.
Interviewer
But what was it like meeting him and going out with him?
Carole Lofgren
Well, I didn't-- I never had a whole lot to say. I would-- I would sit and-- and listen. I wouldn't do a lot of talking. And his wife wasn't just overly friendly kind of a person, you know. If you weren't in politics or anything, I guess, you were no good. That's the kind of feeling I got. So the-- you know, her and I were not, you know...I couldn't say she's a-- she was my friend. Far from it. But, um--
Interviewer
So you would-- you would get together because John wanted to?
Carole Lofgren
Well, he was-- well, he was into politics, too. He was a precinct captain, uh, when he was on Summerdale and there were a lotta functions, um...
Interviewer
So you get together with the Madigans where?
Carole Lofgren
00:37:53:02
Oh, if they had a-- like a dinner dance kind of a thing with-- with, uh, all the captains and all the politicians and stuff. I would-- I-- I-- if I could listen and take on and-- you know, listen to conversations I'd be quiet but I would try to s-- I was still trying to take in a lot and figure out, okay, uh, this one's up to no good and this one I can't stand. Robert Martwick was another one I can't-- uh, I didn't-- I was uncomfortable with him. I don't know why.
Interviewer
When did you start divorce proceedings? Wa, was there some reciprocating event that made you go I've, I've had enough? What, what made you wanna go see the lawyer?
Carole Lofgren
Well, with all the stuff that was going on, him not telling me anything and I felt he was lying to me and also, I was obviously on him about the smell in the house, I couldn't stand it. It smelled like dead rats and I'm familiar with the smell of dead rats, when I lived in Bucktown. Uh, I can remember as a young little kid um, them cleaning out our sewer and they'd pull out all these dead
rats and stuff and I said no wonder it smelled so bad but anyways I used to tell him, I said you really got to get somebody or do something about, there must be something dead under the house. How did I know, I'm telling you, I can't tell you how I acted when I saw that they were under that, I'm like, I was right, there were dead things under that house, that just freaked me out and the youngest girl had her bedroom right there where that crawl space was.
Interviewer
It was in her room, or in the closet?
Carole Lofgren
It was in her room, in, in, in a closet and then the floor opened up...and that just freaked me out, freaked me out but, I was on him about that all the time. He said there, he, there isn't anything dead under the, I said yes there is, I can smell it and I know the smell, that's something dead under there. God, how we used to carry on about that, really. He would try to change that, I said no, there is something dead under the house.
Interviewer
So, what happened when you, when he was arrested, what did you think?
Carole Lofgren
Oh god. Well, I had just walked in the house and my first thing to do was turn on the radio, I always had to have music on and then they broke in and, and had said, when they mentioned the name I just, I stood there. I stood there like frozen and then I had to go to the bathroom and then they had said they had just arrested him um, they're doing more and I turned on the TV then I'm getting phone calls from people; did you know that? Yes I know, you know. So, I sat in the bathroom for a long time and I'm like oh my god.
Interviewer
How did you know Ed Hefner?
Carole Lofgren
Yes. I knew, knew Hefner but, I don't, I don't, it's funny when I think of Hefner, I don't think of him as working for uh, John or no, I, I don't think he did either but that um, I was close with his wife very close friends and uh, I liked Hefner and I don't, I just don't see the thing here with Hefner and John. I that just doesn't, Hefner's a totally different kind of a guy. He was a home body guy. Had a family uh, that kinda thing.
Interviewer
Michael Rossi drew a diagram of the crawlspace. Did you think he had something to do with bodies being there?
Carole Lofgren
There was no way John could uh, with John's weight um, and the way he was built and stuff, I, I, maybe he was in there crawling but, as far as digging, I don't think, he probably would get somebody else to do that, that---.
Interviewer
So that, was that the first thing you thought when they found those bodies well, who put them in there?
Carole Lofgren
00:57:21:18
No, I thought okay. Cram and Rossi get those two guys…I used to say this to Terry Sullivan, he used to come to the house all the time to get this information and I said don't only be thinking about Gacy, I said think about Cram and Rossi.
Interviewer
And you said why aren't they looking at these two?
Carole Lofgren
Yeah and I uh, I've been saying that through this whole thing and anybody I talk to, I said you talk to Cram and Rossi, they can give a lot of information.
Interviewer
00:58:04:22
And what did Sullivan tell you when you said why aren't you going after those two?
Carole Lofgren
00:58:09:13
He said well, we're trying, we're, I think he said at one time he was trying to get a hold of him but, they don't know where he was at. But I still say Rossi knows a lot of uh, really uh---.If I could run into them and I recognized them, I would wanna kill them. I really, there's just something so fishy, phony, I don't know.
Interviewer
Did you see them in court?
Carole Lofgren
I was a basket case for court..no and, and Sam Amirante or however, you say his name, I can't stand that person either.
Interviewer
Why?
Carole Lofgren
He was like pressing me and pushing me to say things that I didn't wanna say.
Interviewer
Like what kind of things?
Carole Lofgren
Well, when he would ask a question, if I didn't answer it right he said you mean? I said I don't mean that. Oh, in fact I done and got all upset, John was sitting there and crying, that was the first time he did any kind of, he felt bad, he wanted to talk to me and they wouldn't let him talk to me. I couldn't talk to him. But that, he was really getting aggravated but there's uh, there's something goofy about that guy too.
Interviewer
How did you feel when I told you, after my lunch with Sam Amirante where he had told me that Robert Marwick had made him a judge as a result of the good job he had done?
Carole Lofgren
Well, I kind of wow, okay. He kissed up to somebody and really got his mitts, wriggled his way in there to get where he wanted to be and Martwick yeah, um, another fishy character. Uh, I uh, say, I guess I had these feelings about people and I don't really know, I couldn't tell myself why it's just, I didn't feel right.
Interviewer
When somebody called Ed Hefner and said I'm looking to ask about Michael Rossi he immediately hung up the phone. Why do you think he would have done that?
Carole Lofgren
The only thing I, I would gather from that is I...I'm thinking Rossi might have talked to Hefner and Hefner knows a lot. And he's not going, he's not that, you know, he's not well I'm gonna tell on…You know, he's not that kind of a person. Well I'm thinking that Rossi might have told him a lot and told him to keep your mouth shut or, you know, threatened that he would somebody take care of him, I don't know.
Interviewer
Why do you think he knows things?
Carole Lofgren
And I don't, I don't know if he does. I just, I'm just kinda guessing. I could picture Rossi saying that to Hefner, I don't know why but…Have you never gotten...now, Hefner should have actually testified. Why didn't he?...In 1975, I remember John said one day you're gonna read about me on the front pages of the newspapers but he said I'm gonna make sure that you and the girls are not
Gonna be harmed by it. I said really? I said how in the hell do you know that?
Interviewer
Did you wanna know what he was talking about.
Carole Lofgren
Well like yeah. I was trying, I was trying to pump him for it. I said what's going on that you're gonna make the front pages? You're gonna have all these drugs that you're gonna be surrounded by or what?
Interviewer
And this is almost three years before he was on the front pages.
Carole Lofgren
Yeah but he'd said, one day you're gonna read about me on the front pages. And I mentioned that to him in prison and he said I never said that. I said don't be such an ass. I said yes you did. I said how could I make up something like that. I said I know you told me that. But I said you only wanna remember what you want to remember and the rest you are pushing it out. I guess, he could play real good games with people. He had a real good, he had a real good thing with that, there's no doubt about it.
Interviewer
And what about Cram and Rossi. Why did you have a bad feeling and how I can understand it to be more concrete with their behavior, what was it about their behavior?
Carole Lofgren
They just did things and they were so cool about it and I used to tell Rossi, I said you know, you're acting coolness doesn't, doesn't do anything to me, I said you're the biggest asshole that ever walked.
Interviewer
Like what kind of things was he doing?
Carole Lofgren
01:30:16:18
I mean just, you know, he always thought he knew everything, he was kind of a kid that would walk around like you know, well you'd be, if you wanna know something ask me, I said I wouldn't ask you shit because you lied in my face.
Interviewer
It's a very contentious relationship with this kid.
Carole Lofgren
I couldn't stand that kid, from day one.
Interviewer
Why?
Carole Lofgren
I am, I'm very pissed off because I was saying it right from the beginning, I used to tell even Sullivan, this is not right, you're not talking to the right people and you're not, you don't have the right people locked up, for one. If John should be locked up, so should those two assholes. I, mm..
Interviewer
And he didn't have anything to say to that?
Carole Lofgren
And I was always asking, you know saying, why is it all John? You don't hear nothing about Cram and Rossi, it's all Gacy. And you think even, any time I brought up Rossi, they, it was like pushed aside, like I never said it.
Interviewer
So there's a lot of story here that hasn't been told yet.
Carole Lofgren
There sure in the hell is.
Carole Lofgren
In 1976, I went back to the house with him, he already redid the kitchen, redid some things in the house since I'd left but I went back with him and he just, he said I just wanna lay, if you don't mind, he said I just wanna lay with you, just to be close and I said okay and I had him close to me and he broke down and he was crying. I've never, I mean he's cried before about the death of his dad,
that always bothered him, that he never was able to go to the funeral, but that night he cried and cried and he wanted to talk, he started to talk and then he'd, he just would stop. I said let it out, you know, cry, I was rubbing his back or whatever and I said John, if you wanna talk, you know you can talk to me. He said I know that. But he said things that I wanna say, he said I don't know if I even should, he said I'm not, he said you know I'm not a person to talk about people, to criticize anybody or you know and he said I don't feel right about it and he just started crying some more and I often wondered what he really wanted to say and didn't.
Interviewer
But he made it seem like it was about somebody else?
Carole Lofgren
Yes. He said it's about people and he said I can't...And I don't wanna talk about people and he said I know what I'm gonna say is not just out of the blue, he said it's a true, it's facts but he said I just, I can't get it all, I just can't get it all out and, 'cause he didn't feel comfortable about that because he never did talk about people, never.
Interviewer
So you guys went on, you kept dating as friends...
Carole Lofgren
Yeah, we did.
Interviewer
You must have just been going crazy when he was arrested and imprisoned? I mean you knew something was wrong with the case?
Carole Lofgren
Well yeah, I did but I didn't know who to turn to, who to go to, you know, um, and I thought, and I just kept saying...
Interviewer
And if you had, what would you have said?
Carole Lofgren
Oh, I would have just kept saying, you know, you're digging the wrong person, uh, maybe he's got, a part of that but not the killings, but I said I do think you should be interested in Rossi, definitely Rossi, more so.
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